Proposal for next season's cup

The teams that lost in advanced stages of the cup might be a bit disappointed by the fact that they'll end empty handed while the teams that lost in first round can still compete for the plate.

So, for the next year, I propose that all losing teams may be offered to compete for the plate. Here is how this would extend the competition tree if the current cup was played like this
(7 more matches in blue):

http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination.xfig.png

Also, both competitions (cup and plate) could be merged into a single full double elimination scheme if the cup winner offers the plate winner a super final in two matches where the plate winner must beat the cup winner twice (cup winners may lose once since contrary to plate winners, they never lost a match).

I think your idea is a great one Regis - I hope it is considered at least.

With your way it means that every team get the chance to lose twice - for example in our current format when The Dealers lost ... that was it for them ... whereas other teams that lost in the first round still got to play in the separate plate comp.

So, this double-elimination system is very similar but instead of having 2 separate comps ... its all in one.

I can understand rugby teams using the more simple method as it is slightly quicker; however, given that the cup can be run over the length of the season at the same time as the league then we can maybe use the more comprehensive system that Batman suggests?

Great idea Bat, lets see how it is accepted

With your way it means that every team get the chance to lose twice

(I finally managed to read it how you thought it, so yeah...)

You need to lose twice get eliminated, hence the name double elimination scheme :o)

Thats a good idea bat or we could have it where there is no plate competition and when you lose your out.

Thats a good idea bat or we could have it where there is no plate competition and when you lose your out.

Yeah, but the idea is to extend the fun:
note that at the time of the mini-final, half of the teams are still in competition.

It also makes the victory of the winner more consistent:
because all losers were beaten twice...

because all losers we beat twice...

...................lmao

because all losers we beat twice...

yeah, edited :o)
sorry english is not my first language...

No matter what happens, that graph is beautiful.
Seriously impressive.

---------
It's perfect and how it should be -it's totally it.
Spot on!!

I hope it's taken into consideration.....as it's true perfection.

May I slightly alter your proposal?

In judo there's a good system for this: if you lose, you depend on the one that beat you. Let's say there's this simple schedule:

first round:
A beats B
C beats D
E beats F
G beats H

second round:
A beats C
E beats G

"Plate Cup" (in judo: race for bronze medal)
B vs. F
(if you lose to a loser, you're out; if you lose to a winner, you get to play another rebound match)

From the above, you may think that I support a system like that, but I don't... Come on, accept it. If you lose, you lose and you're out. That's how it goes in a Cup Game. That's how it went for The Dealers, and, in my opinion, that's how it should have gone.
The Cup was a side tournament anyway, so let's not make it any more important than it is.

May I slightly alter your proposal?
...
From the above, you may think that I support a system like that, but I don't...

like this ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-elimination_tournament#Variations

Also making resit path of length 6 whatever the time a team falls in resit
might not be good (and works because the number 16 allows to balance the resit tree in such a way...).

The original resit tree
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSB-doubleelim-draw-2004.png
makes the resit path of length 7,7,6,5 resp. if a team falls in resit
in eigths, quarters, semis or final, hence progressively shortening
the resit path of teams playing longer in main tree...

I think ur idea is very good 2, and like panda i think it wuld be nice if they will think it over cause thus realy looks good m8

The alternative resit tree with variable resit path length:
http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination-2.xfig.png

compared to the one first proposed in this thread:
http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination.xfig.png

If you in a cup and you get beat, then you get beat, wheres the problem?

You get knocked out in first round then you were put in the plate,thats fair enough,after the first round,you get knocked out then your out,thats the way it is.But the quarters the semi's and the final should have been 2 legged with overall points tallied,i suggested this ages ago with my reasons....................

But what i dont understand is how a losing team in a quarter or semi can go on to a final in another cup.............nice idea but totally absurd.

WIN and LOSE, what do they mean, lmao.

The system is still beautiful regardless; the losers bracket does add an interesting twist.

The problem with it originally...was that it made the first round matches less important. I missed it the first time around, as well.

Reason being, if you lose your first round match you're still in (the losers bracket), whereas if you lose your second round match (even if you won your first match) then you end up being eliminated.

Why should one 1-1 team still be in the running, while another 1-1 team is eliminated?

However, Bat's second system, if I am reading it correctly, is a true double-elimination: every team is allowed a second loss before being eliminated from contention. I can't think of a single way to improve upon it.

It's perfect...

nice idea but totally absurd.

err... It's not as if I was the author of this system.
This actually exists and in fact, in Poker After Dark Season 4,
there was a $50,0000 buy-in tourney of Heads-Up in double elimination scheme featuring Phil Hellmuth, Ted Forrest, Paul Wasicka, and Chris Ferguson.

but the thing is, if a team loses they lose, why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

If a team loses at football, rugby or any other sport then they are effectively out of that cup,if some1 loses at wimbledon do they go into another competition?if you lose at the final stages of a major cup in any sport do you immediately go into a lesser cup?

Maybe nxt season if we have the equivalent of the f.a cup and league cup, then a team will have the right to lose.....

And you cant compare big money games to free internet chips.

The system is still beautiful regardless; the losers bracket does add an interesting twist.
The problem with it originally...was that it made the first round matches less important.

(Losing the first round makes it significantly harder to win:
the path the final is at least 2 matches longer, and
you have to win the final twice instead of once).

but the thing is, if a team loses they lose, why is this so hard for people to comprehend?

Err... I'm completely fine if you, anyone or everyone,
prefer single elimination. It's just a proposal.

And you cant compare big money games to free internet chips.

It's more a way to attenuate the luck factor that is proper to poker
and in particular heads-up. If u think about it, it's a heads-up between 2 teams.

Bat its great idea but i agree with jesta on this one. If you lose you should be out. I dont think they shoud even be a plate competition because if you win you only come in my opinion 9th.

It should be a straight knockout cup

I agree with Macdaddy

Mac and jesta if u lose in champions league your not out u can go down to the Europa league And there two of the biggest leagues in the world. Then u have the winners of each meet so what's your proplem. This way u get more than 1 game and it makes it fun for all great idea bat

blade i dont have a problem. just stating what i think is the best way to go about it.

Champions league has 6 group games once it gets to the knockouts and anyone out in last 16 quarters, semis and finals is out no second chance.

The fa cup is a knock out cup with no second chance.

So hopefully you might be able to see that in both cups You dont get a 2nd chance when it gets into the knockout cup element

Lol blade thats why its called the champions LEAGUE.

The difference between a league and a cup is that a cup is an elimination competition, ie once your out your OUT.

Do you want me to draw pictures or would you like me to describe the words cup,elimation,and league in more detail for you?

Batankyu, a good idea, but kinda takes away from what a CUP tournament is all about.

Cups = round elimination

Yea Pete u keep saying about league and f.a cup but how many teams play I think it's over 100 teams in fa cup. And as far as I know we have 14 teams here so 2nd round there's going to be 7 teams so how does that work maybe u should go back to your drawing board on that 1

we have 16 teams blade. u should look at the cup draw

Can't at min m8 but I thought there was 2 leagues of 7 for next season if it's 8 then yep I'm wrong and it would work 16 8 4 2 so that will be 4 rounds what would be the point then lol

Bat I completly agree with your 1rst graphic !! Its perfect for this kind of competition !!!

Some may not agree with the idea but the thing is that you cant compare sports team tournaments and poker team tournaments... On sports you dont rely on the luck of the draw while on poker you have a big luck factor to consider !! So I think that second elimination tournament is require for this kind of competition !!

Its not the WSOP, its not a single competition !! You dont just rely on your own luck but the luck of 5 players !!

And we dont play live face to face !! Its on web and many things can happen during a match on web !! Losing connection for exemple ...

And onother thing ... Take the match of the Hoofs vs. the Hustlers in the 1rst round ... The Hustlers lost by only 1 point !!! Dont you think they deserve a second chance ??

And we're playing for the fun of the game !!! Which is the biggest reason why we're here !! So why dont make this last as long as we can and enjoy the games ??

Just my thoughts !!!

Lol blade whatever. So yea 16 teams, 8 go out first round (and into the plate), thats the idea because thats the way cups work, then another 4 go, then another 2 till theres 2 left to play in a final.......see how it works.A cup tournament is a knockout/elimination tournament.....what part of that dont you understand?

If a team gets knocked out at a quarter final or semi why should they go into another tournament,by winning your first round match you EARNT the right to play the tournament,when you lose you lose..

Its quite simple,if you lose your out.First round losers going into a plate is fair enough.......but teams losing a quarter and going into another comp at that stage is totally outrageous.

So the idea proposed above is nowhere near a cupmatch, more a cross between a round robin and a mini league.............

Cup matches equal elimination rounds .........enough said.

	The Free Poker Room Forum / The league /
Proposal for next season's cup

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#1 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 15:18 - Edited by: batankyu2
The teams that lost in advanced stages of the cup might be a bit disappointed by the fact that they'll end empty handed while the teams that lost in first round can still compete for the plate. So, for the next year, I propose that all losing teams may be offered to compete for the plate. Here is how this would extend the competition tree if the current cup was played like this (7 more matches in blue): http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination.xfig.png Also, both competitions (cup and plate) could be merged into a single full double elimination scheme if the cup winner offers the plate winner a super final in two matches where the plate winner must beat the cup winner twice (cup winners may lose once since contrary to plate winners, they never lost a match).

	PandaFlesh Forums Member	#2 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 16:06 - Edited by: PandaFlesh
I think your idea is a great one Regis - I hope it is considered at least. With your way it means that every team get the chance to lose twice - for example in our current format when The Dealers lost ... that was it for them ... whereas other teams that lost in the first round still got to play in the separate plate comp. So, this double-elimination system is very similar but instead of having 2 separate comps ... its all in one. I can understand rugby teams using the more simple method as it is slightly quicker; however, given that the cup can be run over the length of the season at the same time as the league then we can maybe use the more comprehensive system that Batman suggests?

	catweazle Forums Member	#3 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 16:24
Great idea Bat, lets see how it is accepted

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#4 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 18:43 - Edited by: batankyu2
With your way it means that every team get the chance to lose twice (I finally managed to read it how you thought it, so yeah...) You need to lose twice get eliminated, hence the name double elimination scheme :o)

	macdaddy2234 Forums Member	#5 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 18:44
Thats a good idea bat or we could have it where there is no plate competition and when you lose your out.

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#6 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 18:52 - Edited by: batankyu2
Thats a good idea bat or we could have it where there is no plate competition and when you lose your out. Yeah, but the idea is to extend the fun: note that at the time of the mini-final, half of the teams are still in competition. It also makes the victory of the winner more consistent: because all losers were beaten twice...

	jesta12 Forums Member	#7 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 19:00
because all losers we beat twice... ...................lmao

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#8 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 19:02
because all losers we beat twice... yeah, edited :o) sorry english is not my first language...

	Daniella Forums Member	#9 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 20:19
No matter what happens, that graph is beautiful. Seriously impressive. --------- It's perfect and how it should be -it's totally it. Spot on!! I hope it's taken into consideration.....as it's true perfection.

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#10 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 22:06
haha... :o)

	MMxx Forums Member	#11 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 22:32
May I slightly alter your proposal? In judo there's a good system for this: if you lose, you depend on the one that beat you. Let's say there's this simple schedule: first round: A beats B C beats D E beats F G beats H second round: A beats C E beats G "Plate Cup" (in judo: race for bronze medal) B vs. F (if you lose to a loser, you're out; if you lose to a winner, you get to play another rebound match) From the above, you may think that I support a system like that, but I don't... Come on, accept it. If you lose, you lose and you're out. That's how it goes in a Cup Game. That's how it went for The Dealers, and, in my opinion, that's how it should have gone. The Cup was a side tournament anyway, so let's not make it any more important than it is.

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#12 - Posted: 6 Sep 2009 23:48 - Edited by: batankyu2
May I slightly alter your proposal? ... From the above, you may think that I support a system like that, but I don't... like this ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-elimination_tournament#Variations Also making resit path of length 6 whatever the time a team falls in resit might not be good (and works because the number 16 allows to balance the resit tree in such a way...). The original resit tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSB-doubleelim-draw-2004.png makes the resit path of length 7,7,6,5 resp. if a team falls in resit in eigths, quarters, semis or final, hence progressively shortening the resit path of teams playing longer in main tree...

	ronvisser Forums Member	#13 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 00:49
I think ur idea is very good 2, and like panda i think it wuld be nice if they will think it over cause thus realy looks good m8

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#14 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 01:26
The alternative resit tree with variable resit path length: http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination-2.xfig.png compared to the one first proposed in this thread: http://regis.barbanchon.free.fr/tfpr/misc/double-elimination.xfig.png

	jesta12 Forums Member	#15 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 04:45
If you in a cup and you get beat, then you get beat, wheres the problem? You get knocked out in first round then you were put in the plate,thats fair enough,after the first round,you get knocked out then your out,thats the way it is.But the quarters the semi's and the final should have been 2 legged with overall points tallied,i suggested this ages ago with my reasons.................... But what i dont understand is how a losing team in a quarter or semi can go on to a final in another cup.............nice idea but totally absurd. WIN and LOSE, what do they mean, lmao.

	Daniella Forums Member	#16 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 05:29
The system is still beautiful regardless; the losers bracket does add an interesting twist. The problem with it originally...was that it made the first round matches less important. I missed it the first time around, as well. Reason being, if you lose your first round match you're still in (the losers bracket), whereas if you lose your second round match (even if you won your first match) then you end up being eliminated. Why should one 1-1 team still be in the running, while another 1-1 team is eliminated? However, Bat's second system, if I am reading it correctly, is a true double-elimination: every team is allowed a second loss before being eliminated from contention. I can't think of a single way to improve upon it. It's perfect...

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#17 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 06:10
nice idea but totally absurd. err... It's not as if I was the author of this system. This actually exists and in fact, in Poker After Dark Season 4, there was a $50,0000 buy-in tourney of Heads-Up in double elimination scheme featuring Phil Hellmuth, Ted Forrest, Paul Wasicka, and Chris Ferguson.

	jesta12 Forums Member	#18 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 06:19
but the thing is, if a team loses they lose, why is this so hard for people to comprehend? If a team loses at football, rugby or any other sport then they are effectively out of that cup,if some1 loses at wimbledon do they go into another competition?if you lose at the final stages of a major cup in any sport do you immediately go into a lesser cup? Maybe nxt season if we have the equivalent of the f.a cup and league cup, then a team will have the right to lose..... And you cant compare big money games to free internet chips.

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#19 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 06:22
The system is still beautiful regardless; the losers bracket does add an interesting twist. The problem with it originally...was that it made the first round matches less important. (Losing the first round makes it significantly harder to win: the path the final is at least 2 matches longer, and you have to win the final twice instead of once).

The Free Poker Room

Proposal for next season's cup

	batankyu2 Forums Member	#20 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 06:28
but the thing is, if a team loses they lose, why is this so hard for people to comprehend? Err... I'm completely fine if you, anyone or everyone, prefer single elimination. It's just a proposal. And you cant compare big money games to free internet chips. It's more a way to attenuate the luck factor that is proper to poker and in particular heads-up. If u think about it, it's a heads-up between 2 teams.

	macdaddy2234 Forums Member	#21 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 08:17
Bat its great idea but i agree with jesta on this one. If you lose you should be out. I dont think they shoud even be a plate competition because if you win you only come in my opinion 9th. It should be a straight knockout cup

	MMxx Forums Member	#22 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 09:02
I agree with Macdaddy

	blade7 Forums Member	#23 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 10:24
Mac and jesta if u lose in champions league your not out u can go down to the Europa league And there two of the biggest leagues in the world. Then u have the winners of each meet so what's your proplem. This way u get more than 1 game and it makes it fun for all great idea bat

	macdaddy2234 Forums Member	#24 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 10:35
blade i dont have a problem. just stating what i think is the best way to go about it. Champions league has 6 group games once it gets to the knockouts and anyone out in last 16 quarters, semis and finals is out no second chance. The fa cup is a knock out cup with no second chance. So hopefully you might be able to see that in both cups You dont get a 2nd chance when it gets into the knockout cup element

	jesta12 Forums Member	#25 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 10:42
Lol blade thats why its called the champions LEAGUE. The difference between a league and a cup is that a cup is an elimination competition, ie once your out your OUT. Do you want me to draw pictures or would you like me to describe the words cup,elimation,and league in more detail for you? Batankyu, a good idea, but kinda takes away from what a CUP tournament is all about. Cups = round elimination

	blade7 Forums Member	#26 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 11:05
Yea Pete u keep saying about league and f.a cup but how many teams play I think it's over 100 teams in fa cup. And as far as I know we have 14 teams here so 2nd round there's going to be 7 teams so how does that work maybe u should go back to your drawing board on that 1

	macdaddy2234 Forums Member	#27 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 11:18 - Edited by: macdaddy2234
we have 16 teams blade. u should look at the cup draw

	blade7 Forums Member	#28 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 11:23
Can't at min m8 but I thought there was 2 leagues of 7 for next season if it's 8 then yep I'm wrong and it would work 16 8 4 2 so that will be 4 rounds what would be the point then lol

	danm97 Forums Member	#29 - Posted: 7 Sep 2009 11:28
Bat I completly agree with your 1rst graphic !! Its perfect for this kind of competition !!! Some may not agree with the idea but the thing is that you cant compare sports team tournaments and poker team tournaments... On sports you dont rely on the luck of the draw while on poker you have a big luck factor to consider !! So I think that second elimination tournament is require for this kind of competition !! Its not the WSOP, its not a single competition !! You dont just rely on your own luck but the luck of 5 players !! And we dont play live face to face !! Its on web and many things can happen during a match on web !! Losing connection for exemple ... And onother thing ... Take the match of the Hoofs vs. the Hustlers in the 1rst round ... The Hustlers lost by only 1 point !!! Dont you think they deserve a second chance ?? And we're playing for the fun of the game !!! Which is the biggest reason why we're here !! So why dont make this last as long as we can and enjoy the games ?? Just my thoughts !!!